Former PM voices fears of many within National that Seymour’s Treaty Principles bill is trying to rewite Te Tiriti and risks pushing nation towards ‘civil war’; Xi warns Luxon against joining AUKUS
We are coming closer to the point where we will have to decide if we are to continue to be a Democracy or that we will mutate into a.” Tribalocracy” similar to PNG
More theatre - she could have made these comments at any time, she could have questioned Prebble's appointment (just as divisive and dangerous) - but instead she waited and took her lead from Luxon. National is trying to gain back some credulity by 'Sane-washing**' the racist tactics of it's parliamentary partner, responding to them in (stolen) rights-based language but voting for them anyway.
** Sane washing is the act of packaging radical and outrageous statements in a way that makes them seem normal.
I agree 100% - Shipley has little credibility in any case.
This is another statement from one of the Gnats grandees - last week it was Finlayson.
Both of them could have been more vocal before the bill was introduced, or applied pressure to the PM that six months before the second reading was excessively long.
I agree David. Iin his comments on the Bill Luxon said they will deal with issues one at a time which is just what they are doing- they got rid of the Maori Health Authority, the Maori wards, the use of te reo for the names of government departments, the removal of clause 4 A from Oranga Tamariki Act, and more. I didn’t hear the voices of the National Party grandees then.
I have never voted National, nor have I been a member of that Party. However, I have watched how that Party operates for much of my life. I grew up in a house which received the National Party local newsletter regularly. As a kid I read the newsletter more than my parents. The Nats modus operendii is to work carefully behind the scenes, leaving little evidence of their actions. Phone calls, chats at the golf club etc. The fact that these two have spoken out publicly suggests that the normal tribal network hasn't worked. Luxon and crew are obviously not listening to the tribal tom toms. It also suggests to me that there could be discontent within wider Party circles about people like Seymour. It could also suggest that if Luxon does not listen he will be rolled before the next election. At present he's very successfully turning off more and more kiwis every day.
The Treaty of Waitangi is between Maori and the Crown, on behalf of British immigrants. Now we have David Seymour, as a part of the Crown side of things, suggesting the Treaty should be renegotiated along the lines of his bill before parliament. If his suggestion should be passed then the Crown could take this suggestion to Maori as the basis for a new Treaty of Waitangi. And should 50?, 60?, 75%? of hapu chiefs agree with this proposal and vote for it, then we have a new Treaty.
Having some internal knowledge of the cut backs in Health NZ IT projects (Data and Digital), we are already seeing service outages at front line level that are making it harder for clinicians to do their job. And is likely to lead to a lower level of care.
Yes. Cancelling the project at a time it’s been taken apart but not put back together again could be fatal. Is that what they want.. defund…make it fail..so they can privatise Health NZ & our hospitals & public health system?
That would be disastrous!
Let’s tax the rich & fund public services properly.
How do we deliver a vote of no confidence in this government & a snap election?
Not surprised about the schooling. I see it in Hamilton too where a primary school in a growth area isn't getting more buildings or teachers, expectation is bigger classroom, 36 kids at last count and only 1 amazing teacher.
J Shipley is right in her criticism of the Treaty Principles Bill.
However, the second, more subtle, threat to Te Tiriti is the National-NZ First agreement to review all 'principles of the Treaty' references in legislation. This could have as far reaching an effect as the blunt Treaty Principles Bill.
Meanwhile anything D Seymour says should be fact-checked. He seems to only spout 'alternative facts'.
Luzon’s actions, glad-handing other ‘leaders’ and non-actions, absent in parliament when it suits him, avoided any portfolio responsibility, avoid interviews when they are uncomfortable and confrontational etc etc shows why he conceded to ACT & NZ First in negotiations. He wants to be CEO with all the perks and then walk away into another corporate position, a la Key.
Meanwhile, the lasting damage to NZ will be behind him because he is ‘Rich and Sorted!’
'Social Investment' is a crock. On one hand, National's economic policies are based on social Darwinism which is guaranteed to produce winners & losers & on the other hand, in tacit recognition of this, National promotes 'social investment' to pick out the losers & try & remediate the worst effects of capitalsm on their lives. What self defeating, contradictory BS. Why not readopt the Social Contract which transformed NZ society from the mid 1930's - 1984? The Social Contract gave us living wages, affordable housing, free education up to tertiary level, free healthcare & financial security during times of adversity or old age. The Social Contract eliminated entrenched poverty & homelessness & made the post war generation the best educated, best fed, best housed & healthiest generation we've ever had. I know, because I'm one of them. We will never make any progress as a nation until we revert to a Social Democratic economy which promotes economic justice for everybody, not just a few.
Anyone have a clue what Seymour’s Atlas Network’s end game is with the treaty principles bill? They were the group behind the No campaign for an Aboriginal voice to parliament in Australia too.
It's an orchestrated hostile corporate takeover of NZ. A resource and land grab. Just like the US, its the same think tank policy blueprint, they just pick of the bits that fit their country's easiest-to-manipulate prejudices first. They are simultaneously attacking, and seeking to manipulate in donors' favour: the courts, climate mitigation, mining bans, oil exploration, conservation, building and consenting, welfare safety nets, targeted disabled support, the education system, the health system, Te Tiriti. This is the Atlas Network's vision statement. "The Atlas Network vision is of a free, prosperous, and peaceful world where the principles of individual liberty, property rights, limited government, and free markets are secured by the rule of law." Note human and environmental rights don't exist in their vision... They want the world the live by the golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. I also don't think it's coincidental we've just discovered NZ is full of unmined gold.
Finally, someone who mentions an overseas element.
I'm about to sound like a tin foil hat cook but hey;
I do believe that there are overseas interests who are watching & rubbing their hands together. Keep in mind countries who have civil unrest or civil war are most vulnerable to overseas interference. We often think that our country is far away in the corner of the earth, but if one thinks about it, we are in a prime spot. Isolated enough from most other countries, near enough to Asia for anyone who wishes to carry out covert operations. Not to mention access to Antarctica. 5 years ago I would have dismissed Shipley, but now a days...I'm keeping an open mind. Honestly...I'm more worried about foreign interference than a civil war.
Agreed. I think the prospect of civil war is unlikely beyond social media.
While there are certainly a decent chunk who are happy in their ignorance and willing to parrot ACT talking points I just can't see a critical mass developing in support of the wholesale destruction of the fundamentals of our constitutional underpinnings.
Don’t forget the influence of the NZ Initiative and the Taxpayers Union both funded by Atlas. RNZ quotes their press releases and broadcasts the results of the Curia poll, run by the Taxpayers Union even though it no longer meets the standards for independent polls. Atlas used social media to swing the Australian vote against the Voice. Be very afraid.
Except that, if you consider the reason for Te Tiriti, which was to settle a war here, we should not take lightly possible reaction to Seymour's very deliberate, iniquitous attempted breach. ...Consider the recent history of Northern Ireland, if you need a relevant example of what can go wrong. And I hope it doesn't, but letting the bill get this far opens the tinder box. ...I'm old and 5th gen. My ancestors came here, fought in that war and stayed. We've had good lives because we signed a treaty. We have to be accountable for our agreements. I'll stand for it outside Parliament tomorrow.
The treaty wasn't signed to settle any war. The Musket Wars that preceded the signing were internal conflicts between various iwi, while the series of conflicts encompassing the NZ wars between the Crown and Māori did not begin till several years after the signing
Don’t sign up to AUKUS. Don’t take sides. Don’t sign up with those that constantly go to war, inflict unbelievable suffering, and try to paint it as just.
I honour the Economic Inequality Protection from abuse at the hands of your own kind or any other kind of the Treaty of Waitangi, sought by the lower socio economic groups majority of Maoridom that signed it, who were getting abused at the hands of their own feudal elites as much as anyone.
I join with Maori in their disappointment that the European governance system they let in had not yet dealt with the Economic Inequality issue to the degree they had been told, and the Euro/American Privately Owned Investment Banker Elites have set about imposing their Pyramid Fraud Economic model upon us all ever since.
Picking off Maori first because they knew the narrow-minded others would look at them as unworthy victims, then setting about getting the all of us due to our conceit.
We are coming closer to the point where we will have to decide if we are to continue to be a Democracy or that we will mutate into a.” Tribalocracy” similar to PNG
Shipley did roll Bolger when he was out of the country, is this a gentle nudge to caucus?
If only - it's probably too soon for them to bring out their leadership clown car.
Judith Collins 2.0
Who else is there? Duh, silly me: - Simeon Brown.
I want to see that just for the shits and giggles.
More theatre - she could have made these comments at any time, she could have questioned Prebble's appointment (just as divisive and dangerous) - but instead she waited and took her lead from Luxon. National is trying to gain back some credulity by 'Sane-washing**' the racist tactics of it's parliamentary partner, responding to them in (stolen) rights-based language but voting for them anyway.
** Sane washing is the act of packaging radical and outrageous statements in a way that makes them seem normal.
I agree 100% - Shipley has little credibility in any case.
This is another statement from one of the Gnats grandees - last week it was Finlayson.
Both of them could have been more vocal before the bill was introduced, or applied pressure to the PM that six months before the second reading was excessively long.
I agree David. Iin his comments on the Bill Luxon said they will deal with issues one at a time which is just what they are doing- they got rid of the Maori Health Authority, the Maori wards, the use of te reo for the names of government departments, the removal of clause 4 A from Oranga Tamariki Act, and more. I didn’t hear the voices of the National Party grandees then.
I have never voted National, nor have I been a member of that Party. However, I have watched how that Party operates for much of my life. I grew up in a house which received the National Party local newsletter regularly. As a kid I read the newsletter more than my parents. The Nats modus operendii is to work carefully behind the scenes, leaving little evidence of their actions. Phone calls, chats at the golf club etc. The fact that these two have spoken out publicly suggests that the normal tribal network hasn't worked. Luxon and crew are obviously not listening to the tribal tom toms. It also suggests to me that there could be discontent within wider Party circles about people like Seymour. It could also suggest that if Luxon does not listen he will be rolled before the next election. At present he's very successfully turning off more and more kiwis every day.
The Treaty of Waitangi is between Maori and the Crown, on behalf of British immigrants. Now we have David Seymour, as a part of the Crown side of things, suggesting the Treaty should be renegotiated along the lines of his bill before parliament. If his suggestion should be passed then the Crown could take this suggestion to Maori as the basis for a new Treaty of Waitangi. And should 50?, 60?, 75%? of hapu chiefs agree with this proposal and vote for it, then we have a new Treaty.
Not quite true Steve he is devious enough not to say he will rewrite te Tiriti
Having some internal knowledge of the cut backs in Health NZ IT projects (Data and Digital), we are already seeing service outages at front line level that are making it harder for clinicians to do their job. And is likely to lead to a lower level of care.
Yes. Cancelling the project at a time it’s been taken apart but not put back together again could be fatal. Is that what they want.. defund…make it fail..so they can privatise Health NZ & our hospitals & public health system?
That would be disastrous!
Let’s tax the rich & fund public services properly.
How do we deliver a vote of no confidence in this government & a snap election?
Will Shipley main-tain her zeal on this?
Not surprised about the schooling. I see it in Hamilton too where a primary school in a growth area isn't getting more buildings or teachers, expectation is bigger classroom, 36 kids at last count and only 1 amazing teacher.
J Shipley is right in her criticism of the Treaty Principles Bill.
However, the second, more subtle, threat to Te Tiriti is the National-NZ First agreement to review all 'principles of the Treaty' references in legislation. This could have as far reaching an effect as the blunt Treaty Principles Bill.
Meanwhile anything D Seymour says should be fact-checked. He seems to only spout 'alternative facts'.
Yup, make no mistake, this is just the 1st step in abolishing Te Tiriti altogether.
Luzon’s actions, glad-handing other ‘leaders’ and non-actions, absent in parliament when it suits him, avoided any portfolio responsibility, avoid interviews when they are uncomfortable and confrontational etc etc shows why he conceded to ACT & NZ First in negotiations. He wants to be CEO with all the perks and then walk away into another corporate position, a la Key.
Meanwhile, the lasting damage to NZ will be behind him because he is ‘Rich and Sorted!’
What a nasty, little, facile creature!
'Social Investment' is a crock. On one hand, National's economic policies are based on social Darwinism which is guaranteed to produce winners & losers & on the other hand, in tacit recognition of this, National promotes 'social investment' to pick out the losers & try & remediate the worst effects of capitalsm on their lives. What self defeating, contradictory BS. Why not readopt the Social Contract which transformed NZ society from the mid 1930's - 1984? The Social Contract gave us living wages, affordable housing, free education up to tertiary level, free healthcare & financial security during times of adversity or old age. The Social Contract eliminated entrenched poverty & homelessness & made the post war generation the best educated, best fed, best housed & healthiest generation we've ever had. I know, because I'm one of them. We will never make any progress as a nation until we revert to a Social Democratic economy which promotes economic justice for everybody, not just a few.
Hear, hear!
Yes 💯%
Anyone have a clue what Seymour’s Atlas Network’s end game is with the treaty principles bill? They were the group behind the No campaign for an Aboriginal voice to parliament in Australia too.
It's an orchestrated hostile corporate takeover of NZ. A resource and land grab. Just like the US, its the same think tank policy blueprint, they just pick of the bits that fit their country's easiest-to-manipulate prejudices first. They are simultaneously attacking, and seeking to manipulate in donors' favour: the courts, climate mitigation, mining bans, oil exploration, conservation, building and consenting, welfare safety nets, targeted disabled support, the education system, the health system, Te Tiriti. This is the Atlas Network's vision statement. "The Atlas Network vision is of a free, prosperous, and peaceful world where the principles of individual liberty, property rights, limited government, and free markets are secured by the rule of law." Note human and environmental rights don't exist in their vision... They want the world the live by the golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. I also don't think it's coincidental we've just discovered NZ is full of unmined gold.
Finally, someone who mentions an overseas element.
I'm about to sound like a tin foil hat cook but hey;
I do believe that there are overseas interests who are watching & rubbing their hands together. Keep in mind countries who have civil unrest or civil war are most vulnerable to overseas interference. We often think that our country is far away in the corner of the earth, but if one thinks about it, we are in a prime spot. Isolated enough from most other countries, near enough to Asia for anyone who wishes to carry out covert operations. Not to mention access to Antarctica. 5 years ago I would have dismissed Shipley, but now a days...I'm keeping an open mind. Honestly...I'm more worried about foreign interference than a civil war.
Agreed. I think the prospect of civil war is unlikely beyond social media.
While there are certainly a decent chunk who are happy in their ignorance and willing to parrot ACT talking points I just can't see a critical mass developing in support of the wholesale destruction of the fundamentals of our constitutional underpinnings.
Don’t forget the influence of the NZ Initiative and the Taxpayers Union both funded by Atlas. RNZ quotes their press releases and broadcasts the results of the Curia poll, run by the Taxpayers Union even though it no longer meets the standards for independent polls. Atlas used social media to swing the Australian vote against the Voice. Be very afraid.
Curia's party and preferred PM polls do meet the standards - it was with some policy-specific polls that they asked leading questions
Except that, if you consider the reason for Te Tiriti, which was to settle a war here, we should not take lightly possible reaction to Seymour's very deliberate, iniquitous attempted breach. ...Consider the recent history of Northern Ireland, if you need a relevant example of what can go wrong. And I hope it doesn't, but letting the bill get this far opens the tinder box. ...I'm old and 5th gen. My ancestors came here, fought in that war and stayed. We've had good lives because we signed a treaty. We have to be accountable for our agreements. I'll stand for it outside Parliament tomorrow.
The treaty wasn't signed to settle any war. The Musket Wars that preceded the signing were internal conflicts between various iwi, while the series of conflicts encompassing the NZ wars between the Crown and Māori did not begin till several years after the signing
Don’t sign up to AUKUS. Don’t take sides. Don’t sign up with those that constantly go to war, inflict unbelievable suffering, and try to paint it as just.
I’ve now opened this one up for full reading, listening and sharing after paying subscribers nudged it up over 100 likes. Many thanks.
The Treaty of Waitangi.
I am Pakeha, I live in Aotearoa/New Zealand.
I honour the Economic Inequality Protection from abuse at the hands of your own kind or any other kind of the Treaty of Waitangi, sought by the lower socio economic groups majority of Maoridom that signed it, who were getting abused at the hands of their own feudal elites as much as anyone.
I join with Maori in their disappointment that the European governance system they let in had not yet dealt with the Economic Inequality issue to the degree they had been told, and the Euro/American Privately Owned Investment Banker Elites have set about imposing their Pyramid Fraud Economic model upon us all ever since.
Picking off Maori first because they knew the narrow-minded others would look at them as unworthy victims, then setting about getting the all of us due to our conceit.