Politicians and the police are remarkably tolerant of people spreading dangerous misinformation and bullying kids, teachers and vaccinators in ways that cost lives and livelihoods. We have to act.
Are we looking at a mental health issue? The past two years have not been good on people with vulnerable mental health. My feeling is that we should slowly but surely take some of the oxygen out of the room, dial it all back . basically let it pass. Keeping people calm is a really important function of government. PS am personally triple vaxed. Have no axe to grind, just wonder if the Health issue is wider than simply Covid
That is an issue, although suicides have fallen in the last couple of years. The bigger issue is the dopamine engines we spend hours on daily, getting more and more outraged...
The first step is to delete all social media accounts. Be the change you want to see.
I look at twiter when you post links and it is clearly one of the places that of much of the negativity on all as sides of every issue is brewing because of these algos your mention. It's all mainstream knowledge now after The Social Dilemma. This means people are simply addicted.
If people must use social media, they could challenge themselves to only post positive comments. No matter how right they think they are about an issue. That might help a bit.
Not sure that's the solution, but it is alarming how quickly the tone can escalate into personal attacks on some of these issues.
During my time manning the 'Remain' street stalls pre-Brexit, there was a stark contrast in the attitude and tone - even with ardent 'Be-Leavers' - between in-person and online discussions. It seems peoples' online egos are much more readily 'triggered' than in real life exchange.
I was in London during that and agree. That's part of what makes social media such a low grade form of communication.
Just in reply to your comment below, I assure you, the impact of social media is more subtle than you might be aware. If you scroll a feed then you're being influenced. Have a search for the science. Our only defence is to DELETE.
It’s the inequality issue and the level of brutalising people are put through in NZ. It’s not a gentle or fair country to live in. There is lots and lots of violence and all forms of abuse. Very sad but if that’s what a country does to people then it reaps what it does really.Everywhere as you outline. Frankly if a small minority want to be unvaccinated what if it. I do support the Bill of Rights. I can’t see why they can’t clear the roads and just ensure the rest of Wellington can continue to function while the protesters have their speeches.Which have been quite moving really. It’s going to rain after all.
And that deserves a mention- you don’t speak up like this much but this is so important. At a simple level death threats are illegal and people should be in jail for making them. At a complex level like you say the root causes are not people or companies here in Aotearoa and not easy to fix
If there have been crimes committed it’s the police that have to investigate them on receiving a complaint.
Honestly, I’m immune compromised at the moment so I STAY HOME. And take the precautions I need to myself now they let it in. I can’t expect perfectly healthy people too turn their whole lives upside down. I think the Government has done a poor job and over egged the pudding as Governments do as usual and making up policy on the hoof which is not consistent good globally accepted LAW “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
Some of the rules have been illogical and ridiculous.
People have been asked to completely isolate 5 year olds for 5 or 10 days from the rest of their families by MOH. It is ridiculous what we’ve all been expected to do. And I’m not even an anti vaxxer.
The best thing they should have done is to just secure borders for the bio security threat this is and will remain.
Too slow. So now it’s individuals fault. And Human rights must be removed.That’s just silly.
Feb 9, 2022·edited Feb 9, 2022Liked by Bernard Hickey
Well said, Bernard - thank you for crystallising stuff that has been worrying and baffling me. To look at it through a smaller lens, keep wondering why the police/legal response keeps focusing on minor offences against good order or very place- or time-specific regulations, usually in a way that involves picking off a few representative offenders in what is largely crowd behaviour. They don’t have the numbers to deal decisively with crowds, nor do they want to be seen to hamper legitimate protest. Fair enough, but the result is that they often seem passive then intermittently petty.
But, as you describe, violence and intimidation are happening blatantly. Are assault (eg with eggs) and intimidation not offences? What about threatening to kill, which is disturbingly common. And why, to draw a long bow for sure, would you charge the worst breakers of anti-infection rules with petty infractions rather than with reckless endangerment?
Actually the first I read of it was this article, so even more so to empower the schools to choose and decide how they wish to implement their part for the wider community.
Brilliant as usual Bernard. The nonsense has to stop. Why should 4% or less of the population I call the “closet Nutters” hold us to ransom. The 96% of the relatively sane remainder need to show some Guts and close them down.
I have thought about Jan 6th Capitol riot, genuinely interested how those rioters are actually able to 'seize' power? Such a relatively small group compared to the size of the US, let alone any proper law enforcement response. I get that Congress may not have been able to ratify the election results (or something along those lines I'm not sure of due process), but surely police / army could move them on (even forcefully) and Congress come back tomorrow and ratify?
Well said Bernard. I also find it extremely frustrating that these people can get away with what they are doing. Even if the Police charge them ,for example , the offence of trespassing the penalty is likely to be a whack on the wrist with a wet bus ticket.
I think that one of the problems of these people is that they are completely brainwashed but I bet if any of them got COVID-19 they would be demanding their entitlement to oxygen.
That is the most succinct explanation of what's happening here. There's a kind of post modern spiritual bypassing going on where bring kind has attained the heights of idiot compassion. Be kind, sure, but in order to do that & stay safe strong boundaries are needed, personally & socially. Especially as the extreme anti camp seem to be devolving into a kind of delayed development where only me matters. It's so bad they're even fighting amongst themselves. Rights are important; so are responsibilities & when someone fails to be responsible they need a consequence. And not the wet bus ticket kind.
Absolutely agree with you. Thanks so much for putting into words the ideas that have been in my head. These people and their toxic irrationality are indeed an existential threat to Civil Society. They’ve taken the opportunity to expose themselves to be dispersed or arrested immediately.
I have been thinking the exact same for quite some time. The most hideous of comments directed often at woman politicians and activists plus the belief that anyone can say anything online that is hateful and hurtful. And actually they can, because time and time again, these haters get away with it. Watching the verbal submission on The Gay Conversion Bill, I realised that there are 2 groups within our supposedly kindly little nation. Those who are opposed to human rights (who believe that being a parent allows you to punish your child if they sway from an old testament style of belief system) and those who mean well for our society. The ugliness that we have seen at this protest is a huge threat to all of us. I think Johann Hari has dealt with this in his book Stolen Focus and I believe he thinks that FB should be completely changed from its current form and made into a platform for meeting old friends and not used for propaganda. Thanks Bernard: this needs to be dealt with.
When authorities are intimidated into inaction by a ill informed noisy few it is time for authority to bring consequences to those the groups concerned and vigorously act to stem the flow of garbage on the antisocial platforms.
Your point of mass vaccinations in schools is telling - tolerating bad behaviour just encourages more extreme behaviour and removes perfectly workable options to the detrement of our community.
Our community has a responsibility to sustain itself, including cutting the garbage on the antisocial platforms. Beyond that who gives a stuff what the crazy fringe think, get out of the way or face the consequences determined by the community.
A final point around the "they mean well", trying to save the children or whatever: motivation and intent are irrelevant, the road to hell...
Misinformation is prevalent at both ends of the Covid debate. Both the anti-vax and the ultra-safety folk come at the issue twisting “evidence” to support their already established views. The self-serving talking heads further exacerbate the divide. Neither side is willing or able to hear the other, and both sides are advocating degrees of harm to others outside of their group –this is the societal threat.
This is a false equivalence in my opinion. There has always been a clear acknowledgement and communication of relative risk and proportional response from the vast majority of government, expert and media commentary on Covid. It's implicit even within the alert level, lights, steps (or whatever's next!) systems themselves.
There is definitely"misinformation" everywhere. There always has been. It feels better to be part the group but reacting to extremism with mor extremism gets is deeper in the hole
Like Bernard is saying here, the root problem is that MOST people are addicted to social media and they are literally intensifying views on all sides.. The more outraged people are is generally the main sign of many hours on the feed.
I disagree. No doubt many people spend a lot of time on - and may be heavily influenced by - social media, but I think most people rationalise the things they see there with other sources. One impact of the lockdowns has been the loss of the social 'calibration' that occurs when mates meet/chat in the pubs and cafes.
Whilst we're seeing a wave of misinformation, many sound sources are standing firm e.g. Stuff's 'The Whole Truth' on Covid-related matters - easily accessible, accurate and balanced information, based on a diverse, well-qualified panel of peer reviewers.
It's all new and there are many unknowns (especially impacts from long-Covid) but assuming we're all gonna be exposed to SARS-CoV-2, in the end it was a choice between an extremely low, known/controlled risk or very low, unknown/uncontrolled risk i.e.
Either leave their immune systems respond to the full 'live' novel virus (v low risk) or introduce a safe spike-only version via vax - and let their immune system get some target practice! 🎯🦠🎯🦠🎯🦠
Agreed Bernard - many of those against public health measures now occupy a space of 'unsafe certainty', often spurred through exposure to mis- and disinformation. I've written more about this here this morning: https://sarbjohal.com/blog/2022/02/10/navigating-omicron-safe-uncertainty/
Brilliant Sarb. You have done much to educate and inform on this case. Much appreciated.
That controllable vs predictable graphic is superb
Are we looking at a mental health issue? The past two years have not been good on people with vulnerable mental health. My feeling is that we should slowly but surely take some of the oxygen out of the room, dial it all back . basically let it pass. Keeping people calm is a really important function of government. PS am personally triple vaxed. Have no axe to grind, just wonder if the Health issue is wider than simply Covid
That is an issue, although suicides have fallen in the last couple of years. The bigger issue is the dopamine engines we spend hours on daily, getting more and more outraged...
Exactly.
The first step is to delete all social media accounts. Be the change you want to see.
I look at twiter when you post links and it is clearly one of the places that of much of the negativity on all as sides of every issue is brewing because of these algos your mention. It's all mainstream knowledge now after The Social Dilemma. This means people are simply addicted.
If people must use social media, they could challenge themselves to only post positive comments. No matter how right they think they are about an issue. That might help a bit.
Not sure that's the solution, but it is alarming how quickly the tone can escalate into personal attacks on some of these issues.
During my time manning the 'Remain' street stalls pre-Brexit, there was a stark contrast in the attitude and tone - even with ardent 'Be-Leavers' - between in-person and online discussions. It seems peoples' online egos are much more readily 'triggered' than in real life exchange.
I was in London during that and agree. That's part of what makes social media such a low grade form of communication.
Just in reply to your comment below, I assure you, the impact of social media is more subtle than you might be aware. If you scroll a feed then you're being influenced. Have a search for the science. Our only defence is to DELETE.
Yeah fair point. We mere mortals have no chance against the marketing gurus and genius algos!
It’s the inequality issue and the level of brutalising people are put through in NZ. It’s not a gentle or fair country to live in. There is lots and lots of violence and all forms of abuse. Very sad but if that’s what a country does to people then it reaps what it does really.Everywhere as you outline. Frankly if a small minority want to be unvaccinated what if it. I do support the Bill of Rights. I can’t see why they can’t clear the roads and just ensure the rest of Wellington can continue to function while the protesters have their speeches.Which have been quite moving really. It’s going to rain after all.
Don't make Bernard angry...you wouldn't like him when he's angry...
Seriously though - I'm p....ed off too.
Ha! I try to limit the hulk moments to only the worst examples.
And that deserves a mention- you don’t speak up like this much but this is so important. At a simple level death threats are illegal and people should be in jail for making them. At a complex level like you say the root causes are not people or companies here in Aotearoa and not easy to fix
No holding punches now.
If there have been crimes committed it’s the police that have to investigate them on receiving a complaint.
Honestly, I’m immune compromised at the moment so I STAY HOME. And take the precautions I need to myself now they let it in. I can’t expect perfectly healthy people too turn their whole lives upside down. I think the Government has done a poor job and over egged the pudding as Governments do as usual and making up policy on the hoof which is not consistent good globally accepted LAW “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
Some of the rules have been illogical and ridiculous.
People have been asked to completely isolate 5 year olds for 5 or 10 days from the rest of their families by MOH. It is ridiculous what we’ve all been expected to do. And I’m not even an anti vaxxer.
The best thing they should have done is to just secure borders for the bio security threat this is and will remain.
Too slow. So now it’s individuals fault. And Human rights must be removed.That’s just silly.
It sounds like mass hysteria on here.
Human and legal rights matter.
Well said, Bernard - thank you for crystallising stuff that has been worrying and baffling me. To look at it through a smaller lens, keep wondering why the police/legal response keeps focusing on minor offences against good order or very place- or time-specific regulations, usually in a way that involves picking off a few representative offenders in what is largely crowd behaviour. They don’t have the numbers to deal decisively with crowds, nor do they want to be seen to hamper legitimate protest. Fair enough, but the result is that they often seem passive then intermittently petty.
But, as you describe, violence and intimidation are happening blatantly. Are assault (eg with eggs) and intimidation not offences? What about threatening to kill, which is disturbingly common. And why, to draw a long bow for sure, would you charge the worst breakers of anti-infection rules with petty infractions rather than with reckless endangerment?
You are right that we're living in dangerous times.
Our government are paid good salaries to govern, and they kick the can down the road on the hard stuff.
It's dangerous for Jacinda to spout "be kind" rhetoric while our families are getting poorer and our kids have no future.
hear, hear.
Hear Hear.
Just got down to the bottom - schools as targets? These people are terrorists and must be treated as such.
Actually the first I read of it was this article, so even more so to empower the schools to choose and decide how they wish to implement their part for the wider community.
Got my TB jab at school years back. Class lined up, 5 minds later all done. Those were the days.
People are terrified of Government inaction for them,misuse and abuse of power these days and not entirely without reason if you look at history.
Brilliant as usual Bernard. The nonsense has to stop. Why should 4% or less of the population I call the “closet Nutters” hold us to ransom. The 96% of the relatively sane remainder need to show some Guts and close them down.
Patrick Medlicott
All for showing more guts and shutting down bad behaviour
Conflating non -vaxxed with anti mandate
Agree with the sentiment Bernhard, well written.
I have thought about Jan 6th Capitol riot, genuinely interested how those rioters are actually able to 'seize' power? Such a relatively small group compared to the size of the US, let alone any proper law enforcement response. I get that Congress may not have been able to ratify the election results (or something along those lines I'm not sure of due process), but surely police / army could move them on (even forcefully) and Congress come back tomorrow and ratify?
Agree.
And despite all evidence to the contrary.
Gary Dyall
Well said Bernard. I also find it extremely frustrating that these people can get away with what they are doing. Even if the Police charge them ,for example , the offence of trespassing the penalty is likely to be a whack on the wrist with a wet bus ticket.
I think that one of the problems of these people is that they are completely brainwashed but I bet if any of them got COVID-19 they would be demanding their entitlement to oxygen.
That is the most succinct explanation of what's happening here. There's a kind of post modern spiritual bypassing going on where bring kind has attained the heights of idiot compassion. Be kind, sure, but in order to do that & stay safe strong boundaries are needed, personally & socially. Especially as the extreme anti camp seem to be devolving into a kind of delayed development where only me matters. It's so bad they're even fighting amongst themselves. Rights are important; so are responsibilities & when someone fails to be responsible they need a consequence. And not the wet bus ticket kind.
Absolutely agree with you. Thanks so much for putting into words the ideas that have been in my head. These people and their toxic irrationality are indeed an existential threat to Civil Society. They’ve taken the opportunity to expose themselves to be dispersed or arrested immediately.
I have been thinking the exact same for quite some time. The most hideous of comments directed often at woman politicians and activists plus the belief that anyone can say anything online that is hateful and hurtful. And actually they can, because time and time again, these haters get away with it. Watching the verbal submission on The Gay Conversion Bill, I realised that there are 2 groups within our supposedly kindly little nation. Those who are opposed to human rights (who believe that being a parent allows you to punish your child if they sway from an old testament style of belief system) and those who mean well for our society. The ugliness that we have seen at this protest is a huge threat to all of us. I think Johann Hari has dealt with this in his book Stolen Focus and I believe he thinks that FB should be completely changed from its current form and made into a platform for meeting old friends and not used for propaganda. Thanks Bernard: this needs to be dealt with.
You are right it is time to say stop.
When authorities are intimidated into inaction by a ill informed noisy few it is time for authority to bring consequences to those the groups concerned and vigorously act to stem the flow of garbage on the antisocial platforms.
Your point of mass vaccinations in schools is telling - tolerating bad behaviour just encourages more extreme behaviour and removes perfectly workable options to the detrement of our community.
Our community has a responsibility to sustain itself, including cutting the garbage on the antisocial platforms. Beyond that who gives a stuff what the crazy fringe think, get out of the way or face the consequences determined by the community.
A final point around the "they mean well", trying to save the children or whatever: motivation and intent are irrelevant, the road to hell...
Scary echo chamber effects.
Misinformation is prevalent at both ends of the Covid debate. Both the anti-vax and the ultra-safety folk come at the issue twisting “evidence” to support their already established views. The self-serving talking heads further exacerbate the divide. Neither side is willing or able to hear the other, and both sides are advocating degrees of harm to others outside of their group –this is the societal threat.
Please stop and reflect.
This is a false equivalence in my opinion. There has always been a clear acknowledgement and communication of relative risk and proportional response from the vast majority of government, expert and media commentary on Covid. It's implicit even within the alert level, lights, steps (or whatever's next!) systems themselves.
There is definitely"misinformation" everywhere. There always has been. It feels better to be part the group but reacting to extremism with mor extremism gets is deeper in the hole
Like Bernard is saying here, the root problem is that MOST people are addicted to social media and they are literally intensifying views on all sides.. The more outraged people are is generally the main sign of many hours on the feed.
I disagree. No doubt many people spend a lot of time on - and may be heavily influenced by - social media, but I think most people rationalise the things they see there with other sources. One impact of the lockdowns has been the loss of the social 'calibration' that occurs when mates meet/chat in the pubs and cafes.
Whilst we're seeing a wave of misinformation, many sound sources are standing firm e.g. Stuff's 'The Whole Truth' on Covid-related matters - easily accessible, accurate and balanced information, based on a diverse, well-qualified panel of peer reviewers.
If your consumed information is balanced and accurate you should easily be able to answer:
What risk does Covid pose to a healthy 12 yr old child?
What is the risk to benefit ratio for Covid vaccination in children?
What is the comparative risk for the 12yr old vs. a 35yr old and 75yr old?
And simply how do the unvaccinated pose a risk to the vaccinated?
If there is difficulty answering these relatively simple questions, perhaps your sound source of information is not so good.
Wouldn't dream to say the evidence is settled here but I did a deep dive before vaccinating my (younger) kids including:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-benefits-of-vaccinating-kids-against-covid-far-outweigh-the-risks-of-myocarditis1/?amp=true
https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-39.asp
https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/atagi-recommendations-on-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-use-in-children-aged-5-to-11-years
It's all new and there are many unknowns (especially impacts from long-Covid) but assuming we're all gonna be exposed to SARS-CoV-2, in the end it was a choice between an extremely low, known/controlled risk or very low, unknown/uncontrolled risk i.e.
Either leave their immune systems respond to the full 'live' novel virus (v low risk) or introduce a safe spike-only version via vax - and let their immune system get some target practice! 🎯🦠🎯🦠🎯🦠
I was surprised the Police risked their staff going for up close and personal frankly.
Surely the PM using Facebook for communication is crazy? By her use, she is validating that platform.
Stepping away from the platform is a message that needs to be sent
Couldn't agree more. Its hypocrisy and will only fan the flames more as time goes on. Technology is meant to aid our lives. Not dominate it.